Speaking of Ole' Elmer - someone ought to get out to Lapeer, Michigan and tape an interview with that man. I would definitely post it on this site.

(12/6) Reply From Paul
On the door of the camper near the license light might be a serial and model # on a silver label. Mine reads se2271.5 , it is a Silver Eagle and 1971 seems to be about right for the year. If you need parts, I have made almost all of my own and would be willing to help on a limited basis. My camper is on the soft top camper picture site. Paul D.

(11/12) Reply from John
I found a canvas tarp at Lowes for $34.00. All I had to do was run a piece of 5/16 rope through one side. It took some work getting the rope through but it works great. It even matched the tan color of my trailer. Mine is 10 X 8. For about $50 they also had a 12 X 10. I hope this helps. John

(10/7) Reply from Paul
Check the lines for kinks , propane only has a couple of pounds of pressure and even though compressed air passes easily the gas may not. Another thing to look out for is small spider mites that take fiendish delight in building nests in the jet tubes and orifices. This happened
to my father so many times that he had to put moth balls in the stove during winter. Paul D.

Here's the details; two new gear boxes were installed three years ago by my Grandfather. In spite of that, the camper was incredibly difficult to raise up due to the torque I had to apply to the crank to get it to do anything. The rear right side initially was the only one lagging behind the others; then the whole front half raised much slower than the rear left. Please help get me on the right track. The camper is currently in the raised position with everything working well besides this lift system. I have the parts and service manual for this camper but can't quite get it to make sense what I have to do mechanically. I am fairly well mechanically inclined, however I just can't quite figure it out, the manuals seem very vague.

In addition to these problems I have a large hole in the rear right corner of the plastic road cover(5"by 6") which spiders out from that point.  I have read a little about using M.E.K. and other Fiberglas repair items on this, are there any really good ways to ad rigidity back into the roof with such a large hole? Also can I comfortably tow this monster with a '95 Ford WindStar this is the 12' model.

Thank You,
Shawn Barksdale     E-mail me at barky6@gateway.net

As far as the hole in the road cover - I understand that an ABS plastic repair kit is the way to go. They can be ordered from the places listed on the Parts page. It works similar to fiberglass or bondo, but it's the same material as the road cover so it works best. I believe it comes with fabric strips that can be built up over large holes. The instructions should cover your particular application. Our Apache had a crack that may have spread, but was stopped with a small drill hole at the end of the crack. You may want to do that to the radiating cracks you described.

(10/9) Reply from Dick
Sounds to me like if the new gear boxes were installed properly that he might have something jammed in the chain guides...maybe a broken link etc....or the chains might no be timed right....I would remove the gear boxes and make sure the chains are in the proper position before installing the gear boxes.....if you get a chain link off or so on alignment it will make for trouble.

Dick Allen
73 Roamer

(9/20/99) Reply from Paul D.
Check the "How to Buy" section in this site. The most important thing in the old Apaches is a good floor, as everything is hung and braced off it. The floor is replaceable but not an easy job. If the floor needs replacing, remove slowly taking notes/ and or pictures so you know how to put it back together. Keep the origional floor and use it as a template for all holes and dimensions. Use a marine-grade plywood (no voids). A good temp solution for a questionable top is a cheep plastic tarp . Use TRIFLOW on all hinges and sliding parts. It drys leaving a teflon film but dry to the touch. Enjoy your camper and keep a piece of history alive. Paul D.

(9/18/99) Reply from John
I have an Apache Eagle 8. It sounds to me like you have a larger Apache. Is it all Canvas? In 74 Apache made a Falconer the same size as a Ramada that was all Canvas. My canvas was held in place at the top by the plastic trim that the curtians are hung by. I removed the plastic trim piece with a stiff putty knife. Apache sales still has the plastic so you can replace it if you damage it. I was careful getting it out and reused it when I installed my new canvas.

This Apache has been a joy to use over the years, both during my youth and these past three years camping with my wife and three children, since I took possession. Our current problem is that the canta-lever system has deteriorated to the point that I can no longer make "handy-man" repairs. Bent hinges, specialized rivets worn out, etc.. It is becoming increasingly frustrating to erect and use the camper. I figured there must be parts houses for these old campers but could not identify parts, manuals or any other information about my model from your website.

I understand the excitement of the later model hard-sided Apaches. But is there any enthusiasm, knowledge, parts and interest in the older models? Please point me in the right direction since I would love to restore this beauty closely back to its original condition instead of junking it.

In a state of disrepair, Michael J. George  Madison, WI

(8/30/99) Reply from Paul Drescher
I have done extensive repair of my silver eagle including hinges lift mech. i also have a metal lathe and live in s.w. milw area and would be glad to help you if you want? look at my picture at the top of the soft top campers in this site . I will send you a sketch and article that i
wrote for doug on hinges. Paul Drescher sensi3d@execpc.com
(Webmaster Note: The sketch & article can be found on the How To page)

(8/30/99) Reply from Paul Drescher
I spent $600 on a completely custom top for 4 person eagle.

(8/30/99) Reply from Mark
The pole screws can be moved with some prep and the right tools. First, one day in advance soak the screw with Craftsman air tool oil (3.99 a pint) it is very good light oil. The next day loosen the bolts with an 1/2 impact wrench. That tool can do what you can not because it "hammers' the bolt several time a second loosening the rusty bolt. Another possibility; is the jack that the adjusting bolt attached to bent? If so straighten it out with a pry bar.

(8/30/99) Reply from Mark
First things first. Do you have any power even with the converter plugged in? If so then you just have a problem with the 12 volt system. There are six wires in the cable to the car. Four are used for taillights one for the electric brakes (BLUE)- the wire will be there even if your trailer is not equipped with them- and one wire for 12 volts DC POSITIVE. Here are the colors (I am quoting the US standard, Canadian may vary) White is the ground, brown, green and yellow all run the tail lights; their exact purpose is not important as you are only concerned about the 12 standby wire This is the RED wire. So connect a battery post alligator clamp to the RED wire for the POSITIVE post on your standby battery and slice in a alligator clamp on the white wire. This white wire will serve as both the ground for the tail lights and the negative on the 12 volt standby system. This will not be a problem, just remember to confirm that the white wire is hooked up both to the harness that goes to the car and the alligator clip to the NEGATIVE post on the battery.

What we do for 'Rustic' camping is bring along a marine 12 volt storage battery and after we set up camp I place the battery in the LP storage area and hook up the clips. Quick and easy. I toyed with the idea a putting the battery there permanently but all that weight would be on the
tongue of the car - bad idea.

You mention solar charging. I don't know about that but once the battery is hooked up a reputable dealer should be able to set up. Try backwoodshome.com for solar suppliers.

(8/28/99) Apache Power Supply Warning from Mark
I have noticed a design flaw on my 1975 Mesa's power supply that may be shared with other Apache's. The power supply has a 14 gauge 120 volt cord rated at 15 amps and a 15 amp circuit breaker. You would think that the 120 volt plug in the camper on the power supply is 15 amp also. It isn't. it will run a electric heater (most draw 13 amps) for quite a while and never blow a breaker. It will eventually burn the internal wires in the power supply. My guess is that this design was intentional so a small appliance could be plugged in the 120 volt plug while the 12 volt supply was working. This way the total amperage draw was less than 15 amps. The problem is many folks are scared of the propane heaters (if they are so equipped) and are using a electric heater . You will get into trouble sooner or later - perhaps even a small electrical fire.

(8/28/99) Reply from Mark
Encapsulate 'em!

Step #1 smooth over the panels as best as you can by removing them, then sanding them with a electric sander. Then 'paint' them with properly prepared (resin and hardener) fiber glass resin. This is the liquid part of fiberglass. This resin is the hard smooth part of fiberglass. It has little strength by itself (this is what the fiberglass is for) but as you are just encapsulating the wood you do not need strength.When you are done with both sides and edges the panels will be waterproof! The resin costs about 8.00 a quart and is sold by Walmart in the automotive section

(8/17/99) Reply from John
I talked to Elmer. 71 was the first year. They changed in 72-74. They changed again 75-8?. Elmer is to get back in touch. The problem is the fiberglass might be very expensive ie. $400.00 per panel. We will see. It looks like the 72-74 and the 75-8? would be the best canidates for reproduction. I am also looking at making new ends out of Alum. The price and weight might be better. John

(8/17/99) Reply from Mark
Good idea about making new panels, but John, canvas retrofit kits can be had for 595.00 for both ends. The outfit in Lapeer, Mich. that is Ole Elmer's competitor sells them (Camper parts co (?)).

By the way I met Elmer last week. real nice guy, he stayed 1 1/2 hours late just for us. He is wheel chair bound but still made an extra effort to help us with mounting some gear boxes right in the parking lot.

Apache Sales Co is a small place, maybe 500 sq. feet. They supply everyone else with the gear boxes which they have made for them overseas. They order 1700 every year or so. Many of the small obscure parts are still available thru Elmer even the oversized pop rivets that are so common throughout the camper. Elmer is not the owner, by the way. I thought he was 75 or so but my wife places him at 85-90. He is one spry guy. There was a picture of him, a clipping from 'the way it was' section of the Lapeer paper delivering milk in 1946. By the way he has never been on the Internet and only knows what goes on here by what he is told. My brother lives about 10 miles from him. As a teenager I loved to ride through Lapeer.
unlike other towns in the suburban Detroit area, Lapeer had people out WALKING on Friday night. It was so novel that I took my buddies there to show them.

(8/19/99) Reply from John
I am looking for someone who lives in the Cincinnati OH. area who will let someone from Masterpattern take digital pictures of their hardsided Apache camper. It needs to be a 1972-1974 and or 1975-1982 hardsided Apache. If anyone is willing then we may be able to make reproduction panels. Please contact me.  John Gottwald  jpgottwald@mindspring.com

The lift system file on this site is a pretty large pdf file. It can be downloaded by any browser - there's really no difference between IE or Netscape. Adobe (pdf) is not a Microsoft product. Since the file is so large, it takes a long time to download. Some folks with slower modems,   systems, or connections just give up after a while since it doesn't appear that anything's happening. Depending on your setup, it can take 20 minutes to load! I have a T1 at work and it loads in less than a minute. So I'd recommend trying it at your work and printing it out. The other alternative is to give Ole' Elmer a call at Apache Sales Corp. and order the manual directly from him. He'll also sell you the proper gearboxes. The info. can be found on the Parts page of this site. A different parts place may also have the parts/info you need. Good Luck!

The hinge you're refering to is called a "living hinge". I'm pretty sure Apache Sales Corp. carries them. Some of the other parts places listed on the Parts page may also carry them too. Good Luck!

(9/12/99) Reply from Jeff
Hello Doug, I was able to find the stainless screw that I wanted - installed them with the help of my two sons lifting up the top then placing them in the chain and slowly working them in place! The top goes up and down good now although I still do not under stand the chains? Thanks Jeff

(8/11/99) Reply from John
I purchased new tires at Agrisupply in Petersburg Va. I think they sold the same tire with the rim also. I also saw that tire mounted on a rim at Tractor Supply. They have a web site www.tractorsupplyco.com. I do not know if the rims they have will fit but they might. John

(9/5/99) Reply from Tom
I too ran into problems finding a wheel for my '71 Apache Mesa III. The Apache trailers need a wheel with an offset center web to keep the tire from hitting the torsion arm. I first bought one from the Canadian store you listed. He charged me $50 and said it was because it was his last one. Then, I took a camping trip to Seattle and ended up breaking a wheel along
the way. I ended up finding a place in Seattle, WA that was able to get me a brand new wheel. The place is called Evergreen RV. (206) 542-1183. The wheel is a 8 X 5.375 and the standard 18 X 8.5 tire will fit onto it. The wheel only cost $17! They said to let other Apache owners know that they can order wheels for them. Just let them know you want a offset center web 4 hole wheel, 8 X 5.375, with the valve stem on the deep side. Hope this helps.
Tom  -  Minnesota

Good luck!

(7/24/99) Reply from Mike
Hi Heidi - try this I know this sound too easy. Unplug the refrigerator. Turn it upside down on its top for 24hrs. Then set it upright for 24hrs with it plugged in, then turn it on. This should work.

It sounds like you may need to do a gearbox replacement. New ones can be purchased from Apache Trailers in Canada or Apache Sales Corp. in Michigan - the info. is on the Parts page. They run about $150 a pair. There's also a downloadable manual on the Parts page that includes complete instuctions on gearbox replacement. Scroll down on this page and Q&A II to read some good advice from others who've dealt with this.

Finally, read your owner's manual all the way through (if you have one) to learn the proper way to set up and strike the Apache. Apache Sales Corp. may have manuals for sale. Here's some advice I gave to another gentleman:
1. The camper should be perfectly LEVEL with all the feet secured in place.
2. After the roof is cranked all the way up and the walls are folded up and cliped into place, you must crank the top back down a few turns to lock the walls in place and seal them tight.
3. Extra care should be taken to ensure the bed ends are put up correctly. The 'ears' on the top latch must be on the top-side of the roof 'ears'. The sides must be all the way tight in the grooves. Some models have separate molded plastic pieces that fit over the 4 outside corners and prevent leaks - similar to the molded plastic pieces that fit over the outside tracks. Look for extra plastic latches on the corners as an indication if your model requires them.
You can also check out a posting on Q&A II that imparts some towing advice. (hopefully this link will work...)

Good luck!

(7/30/99) Reply from Gregg & Kathleen
Thanks for your reply and help. We took everything in the lift system apart and it appears that three of the lift chains have broken links at the end. Called Ole' Elmer for the price (Ouch). We are going to order one and see if we can use links from one of the broken chains to repair the other two. Does anyone know if there is a metal type chain available that would fit these units? We are concerned about the longevity of these plastic chains. Ours must have been
replaced before because we have the new style gear box. Do these plastic chains last very long? How long? We would sure appreciate any advice in this area. Thanks for doing such a great job and providing such a great service for all of us. Gregg & Kathleen, San Diego, CA

(7/15/99) Ingenious Reply from Jason Hinson!
My wife sewed plastic pearls from a fabric store onto our new curtains. Just make sure they are small enough to fit into the curtain rails.

(7/15/99) Reply from Jason Hancock
Wanted to let you know that I too also had new curtains made for my 77 Apache Ranger and was able to order the curtain tab tape by the yard from the Apache trailer parts store located in Canada. I am further aware that Ole Elmer also carries it at Apache Sales Corp.
Also..... I had great luck with Apache trailer sales in Canada. John is a great resource there and supplied me with new telescope nobs and a replacement ABS telescope cover that matches perfectly. They also carry tinted lexan windows for all sizes and I have completed this task and it looks great.  Thanks again for this GREAT web site.

(7/12) Return Reply from Doug Dempsey
Dear Doug...Apache Webmaster: Thanks for the fast reply. I did find the manual and parts breakdown which were of immense help. There are some rudimentary instructions as well which save one from breaking more than one fixes...often a problem with "mature"
equipment...same with my old '53 F600 and my '53 Fordson Major Diesel!! Slow and careful. If it won't go, find out why before putting a bigger handle on the wrench!

This AM I took the plunge and called Ole Elmer and not only was able to obtain the chain, hinges, crank, etc...but had a delightful conversation with him as well. He is gem.

When I asked "Are you keeping busy", he said "You know, someone put our name on the Web and ever since, we practically can't keep up!!".

Of course, after Elmer had asked me a few questions such as color, length, plastic or metal hinges, etc...he had the camper down to one of two model years!! Equally, he immediately had all of the part numbers of the various pieces and their prices memorized! What a treasure.

Darn, looks like I will have to go out and buy a snowmobile trailer. I offered to trade the camper to a friend for any 100" wide two wheeled trailer last fall....luckily, he didn't take me up on it. Best regards and keep on campin'

Doug Dempsey (aka shearbond@aol.com)

(7/15/99) Reply fro Wayne Triebold
I own a 1965 Apache Golden Buffalo. When I bought it two years ago, I made several repairs
with a latex tarp patching glue. I purchased the glue in a one quart plastic bottle for about
$7 as I recall. I bought it at a farm supply store in Fargo ND named Nodak. I would assume
that any farm supply store would carry a similar glue. The glue dries very flexible and almost transparent. It rubs right off your hands after drying so there is not a lot of clean up to be concerned about.

(7/23/99) Reply From John Kennedy
Hi Bob, Boy I hope I remembered your name, my web browser doesn't work all that good and I have to go to yahoo mail to email people. Well anyway, having had my gearboxes off a couple of times I think I know what bolt you may be talking about. It sticks out of the chain track after you have removed the nut from it and is retained by a spring clip that fits snugly around it. I think the bolt is outside of the chain track as mine have the lots of movement up and down as the spring clips have rusted away on some of them. Make sure the retainer clip is removed and I think you can just push the bolt up and out. Getting the new one in is the trick. You may have to remove the interior panel on the affected end to gain access to the track.
P.S. I have worked on countless rusted things for 30 years near the beach and there is no equal to a spray product named Master Blaster.  You can find it at automotive parts places (napa?) if this product will not free a rusted bolt you can just go ahead and get a cutting torch.  Good Luck John Kennedy

Another inexpensive repair idea from Mike Novotny
Great site!!! When I bought my '70 Mesa III, I just thought I was getting a good deal on an old camper. After findng your site I realize I got a great deal on a classic !   One of my lift springs popped out of the track & twisted on the '70s unique system. The only replacements I could find cost $85 each, with me supplying the ends. I'm going to replace it with cable and a length of 1/2 " plumbers snake I bought at the local hardware store. Swag the original ends on, should be like new. All 4 corners can be re-done for less than $40. Happy camping!!!

(7/9/99) Cable Hatch Repair
I have another source for parts. My cable hatches were broken and the RV dealer wanted $9.00 for each hatch and the were white. They no longer make brown or green hatches. All that was wrong with my orginals was the metal springs were broken. The dealer told me I couldn't buy just the springs so I bought 1 hatch and then called 411. I got the number of the company that still makes this type of hatch (219) 262-4707. I purchased 10 springs for .35 each. To replace the spring you must first drill out the rivets holding in the hatch. the broken part can now be removed. Next on the hatch side take a knife and pop off the name ie Cable Hatch. You must be very careful when doing this because they are glued on and the plastic is old and brittle. You can now get to the other side of the spring. The spring is three pieces. Two rods and a clip spring. Install one rod and the spring into the door. This is the easy part. Next file one of the end of the second rod in a cone shape. Put the door and body together as in the closed position. Now take a fine screw driver like the smallest one on a Leatherman Tool and slide the rod into place. You have now replaced your spring. Get some new metal caulk to replace the old caulk and pop rivet back in place. The last thing is to glue the names back on the hatches. Now you can have all the original hatches in working order.
John

(7/12/99) AC Installation
The ac installation is complicated. I installed a 6000 BTU (should be 8000 or larger) window ac into the space where my 10 gallon water tank was. My ac unit was 12 3/4 in H by 18in W by 14in D. I had to cut the interior cabinet wall and fit the front of the ac flush to the wall. Second, I cut a 12 in by 12 in hole into the exterior and created duct work that connected the rear of the ac to the hole in the exterior. I also had to drill a hole in the lowest part of the ac unit and through the trailer floor so the water could flow outside. I also cut some 2 1/2 in holes through the floor and mounted circular vents so air could get to the air intakes on the side of the
window unit.

I started by placing the ac unit where I thought it would go. Next I cut a 12 in X 12in hole in the exterior. I cut a hole about as big as a hatch first and checked the inside. I'm glad I did because I had the hole marked too high. I re-measured and made the cut. Next I cut the hole into the cabinet (take the front of the ac unit off and make a hole smaller than the back of the front grate.) When done correctly the grate will fit directly into the cabinet without any gaps. Now drill out the rivets and screws holding the cabnet wall into the trailer and remove. Now take your hole saw and create the holes in the floor ( not directly under where the ac unit
will be) so the side vents on the ac unit will be able to get outside air. Now take your Ac unit and drill a 1/2 in hole in the lowest point and make sure you do not hit anything in the unit. place the unit inside the camper and drill a hole where your drain is.

Now place your unit inside the camper and make sure your hole is in the correct place. I made a 2 1/2 in hole to make sure it was in the right place and so water will never rot out my floor. Now measure for your duct work. I rivited the duct to the ac unit and then installed. Now place your ac unit inside. Next place the cabinet wall back and pop rivet and screw it in place. Last take metal caulk and caulk around the outside hole for the exaust grate. I screened the back of
the grill so bugs will not make a home in there during the off season. Then I screwed the grill in place. You can rivet this but I thought I might want to be able to take the off so I screwed it. This is more complicated than fixing the lift system but once in place is worth it. It took me one
complete day to do this project.

(7/24/99) Reply from Harold
Regarding the rear gear box, I simply had a welder make a steel guard plate that protects the box from scrapes and it has worked well for 4-5 years. If any questions, please contact.

Finally - don't give up!!! It sounds like you've done a marvelous job on the inside which probably sapped most of your energy. Take a break, and when you get some energy back - get out there and focus on the last few items that will make yours an Apache to be proud of. You're 3/4 of the way there - don't give up now!!! We know you can do it!!!!!

6/12 Reply from Tom in MN.:
---------------------------------------------
Hi,
I just painted the frame on my 1970 Mesa III with a paint that many of the auto restorers use. It is called POR-15. They have a website at www.por15.com. It is a very good paint for rusted undercarriages. You paint it right over the rust and it forms a very hard surface and prevents further rusting. You can use any good wood deck type waterproofing paint for the plywood base.
Tom,  Plymouth, MN

6/11/99 Answer from Jim Lockard JRLockard@enter.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the problem with the lights, based upon the information given, is a poor ground, not a short. I believe a short would cause the fuse to burn out. A poor ground would cause the lights to go out, blink as described, and would not be detected as a short. I have (and have had)
several trailers (boat, campers, cargo) and USUALLY, when there is a symptom of using the turn signal and either both, or all lights, flashing, it has usually been resolved by addressing a ground problem. For example: My 1966 Raven had the same symptoms. Going out for no
reason, lights that shouldn't be flashing or blinking are, dim lights, no fuses burned out. The framework (tonge, springs, axle, etc) are totally isolated from the aluminum camper box. There is plywood secured to the framwork, and the box is secured to that plywood around the
perimeter. Since the Raven has NO cabinets or double walls, it was easy to trace the wiring. There is a ground wire that attaches to one of the gussetts inside the body. The wiring configuration that pre-existed on the trailer when I picked it up had that wire going to the vehicle flat four plug connection. Unfortunately, the newer vehicle configuration doesn't include a ground connection on my vehicle (it is a hot wire instead). I installed a new grounding wire between the framework and the body and all of the symptoms have disappeared. I used a short piece of #14 stranded wire (typical trailer wiring stuff) with appropriate terminals on the ends to screw it to the metal. The ground connection between the vehicle and the trailer is made through the hitch. You may need to have the trailer connected to the vehicle to validate my suggestion, not just close enough for the wires to connect.

Click here to view the measurements Robert & Irene sent

The main thing to consider is the condition of the camper and the features it has or doesn't have, and your geographic location (supply/demand). Let me give you this information for a comparison: I'm in Chicago, and we paid $1400 for our 1975 Apache Royal in very good condition. It's big, has all hard sides, a sink with 2 faucets, stove, propane tanks, propane heater, attached awning, power converter, extra electrical sockets, 2-speed vent fan, folding couch, sleeps 7, and included lots of extras like a porta-potty, party lights, spare keys, owners manual, etc, etc.. It was bought from the original owner who took great care of it. It did have a few blemishes, but not many.

I've heard of Apaches ranging from free to $300 to $3000. Generally, a canvas model is not worth as much as a hard-sided model. The question you need to answer is, what's it worth to you? Just remember - a new camper probably won't even be around in 2027 - they just don't make them as solid as the old Apache's! So good luck - hope this helps at least a little!

1. The previous (original) owner of our Apache ran electrical outlets all over the place inside and out. They really come in handy. Ours has an AC/DC converter built in, but we tend to use the 110V outlets most often. We use a small AC lamp when camping as it puts off a nicer light than the overhead 12V.  We also use an AC oscillating fan in the summer, and a big box fan for really hot nights. 

2. Coating the aluminum roof sounds like a good idea. Anyone out there ever try this?

3 & 4. Not sure about the roof AC unit OR bike rack either. Anyone?

5. Our Apache needs a separate control box in the tow vehicle to operate the brakes. Not sure about yours, but I would guess this would be the case. We still haven't hooked it up since we anticipate a tow vehicle change sometime soon.

6. Our Apache side lights are all orange. Side lights help you keep an eye on things when driving at night, and are also a good safety device.

7. A new 7 prong wiring harness should come with a sheet explaining which wire goes where.

If you really need to find an answer to these, you may want to try calling Ole' Elmer. Have your questions prepared because he is a busy man. Good luck!

(REPLY From Dennis 6/6/99)
Well I did it, I bought the Camper from my sister. It is a '75 Ramada not a '74 as I stated in my original email regarding the paint job. I have all of the original owners' manuals as well the service manual for the brakes. I also have the price sheet and options list from the dealer here in Chicago from '75. I'll see what I can do about getting them scanned in, and also
saved in PDF for your web site. (I'm very fimilar with preparing images for the web, as well as PDF's.) Thanks for the great web site. The exchange of information among this great group of peolpe is fabulous! BY the way I think I'll paint the camper, the body and the door have faded in different directions, one's darker, one's lighter. Luckily, my brother-inlaw is a body and fender guy. He'll do it for me on the side. Thanks! I look forward to the Apache Roundup!
Dennis

It was sold May 3, '79 in El Paso, TX, I had totally forgotten that I had all the orig. Manuals and
Service Bulletin on the from Fayette Division-Dayton-Walther Corp. on the Brakes, Wheel
Bearings and the Manual as well, Owners Manual on the Central Power Pack System-ES Model, Room Thermostat, Hydro Flame Maintenance Service Manual, Wiring Diagram
for Bargman 7 & 9 Circuit 12v Electrical Connector, and yes last but not least by all means, the Apache Owners Manual for both Solid State and Canvas Models. After finding this web site I know just what I have in these papers and manuals where as before I knew to make sure that they where kept in tack not once did I really give them to much thought. Needless to say I am willing to help anyone if they need copies of any of the things that I have.

Also I live in Northern California and would like to work on an Apache get together out this way, please put me in touch with owners out this way. In my camping over the last three years that I've owned my Apache I have seen others, but not been able to talk to them for one reason or another. Thanks for all your help and input on my Apache.
Warmest Regards, LJ

LJ Denney
PO Box 8265
Santa Rosa, CA 95407
FAX: 545-6563
EM-outdoorslady1@yahoo.com or outdoorslady@hotmail.com

I will certainly pass your info on to Jim who's coordinating the N.E. Apache Roundup '99. He's collected the list of interested folks so far. (He's currently on a fishing trip, so we won't hear from him for a week) At any rate - thanks so much for volunteering to organize a N. California Apache Roundup '99! Any Apache owners in that neck of the woods, please contact LJ!

More from Kevin 5/23/99
Doug, The web site just keeps growing, it is so awesome. Well I ran into some problems on keeping the A/C unit cool, so here is my modified installation. In the cabinet under the stove I cut the existing heater vent plate larger to accommodate the A/C unit. I then made braces to fit in the cabinet for the width of the unit. I bought some drawer sliding rails 22" in length and mounted them to the braces. Then I attached the unit to the other part of the rails and put the system in. Now I can leave it in the camper while in tow and when not in use, and just slide it out when we need it. I am in the process of making a cover plate for the exterior of the opening. I will try and get some pics of the installation out for you. Thanks for the Great Site,
Kevin  picketts@carol.net

(7/12/99) Answer from John Gottwald
The ac installation is complicated. I installed a 6000 BTU (should be 8000 or larger) window ac into the space where my 10 gallon water tank was. My ac unit was 12 3/4 in H by 18in W by 14in D. I had to cut the interior cabinet wall and fit the front of the ac flush to the wall. Second, I cut a 12 in by 12 in hole into the exterior and created duct work that connected the rear of the ac to the hole in the exterior. I also had to drill a hole in the lowest part of the ac unit and through the trailer floor so the water could flow outside. I also cut some 2 1/2 in holes through the floor and mounted circlular vents so air could get to the air intakes on the side of the window unit.

I started by placing the ac unit where I thought it would go. Next I cut a 12 in X 12in hole in the exterior. I cut a hole about as big as a hatch first and checked the inside. I'm glad I did because I had the hole marked too high. I remeasured and made the cut. Next I cut the hole into the cabinet (take the front of the ac unit off and make a hole smaller than the back of the front grate.) When done correctly the grate will fit directly into the cabinet without any gaps. Now drill out the rivets and screws holding the cabnet wall into the trailer and remove. Now take your hole saw and create the holes in the floor ( not directly under where the ac unit
will be) so the side vents on the ac unit will be able to get outside air. Now take your Ac unit and drill a 1/2 in hole in the lowest point and make sure you do not hit anything in the unit. place the unit inside the camper and drill a hole where your drain is.

Now place your unit inside the camper and make sure your hole is in the correct place. I made a 2 1/2 in hole to make sure it was in the right place and so water will never rot out my floor. Now measure for your duct work. I rivited the duct to the ac unit and then installed. Now place your ac unit inside. Next place the cabinet wall back and pop rivet and screw it in place. Last take metal caulk and caulk around the outside hole for the exaust grate. I screened the back of the grill so bugs will not make a home in there during the off season. Then I screwed the grill in place. You can rivet this but I thought I might want to be able to take the off so I screwed it. This is more complicated than fixing the lift system but once in place is worth it. It took me one complete day to do this project.
jpgott@mounet.com

Apache Webmaster Reply:
If your camper already has a heater in the space and you want to keep it there,an additional (slightly expensive) option is to purchase an RV roof-mount air conditioning unit. You'd have to cut a hole in the roof (yikes!) but if done correctly, I've heard these units work great. Please let us know what you end up doing and how it works. Good luck!

We finally had to buy a replacement tent and awning for the Eagle. We were assured that the new one would be EXACTLY like the original for their having the patterns. What we got is about 80% exactly the same.

Gregory makes the main top of the tent itself out of white vinyl so we no longer have our beautiful green tent. The piping around the windows is cotton and capillary action brings pretty significant water drips inside when wind blows hard rain against the side. They must have changed the top to vinyl because the canvas they use other places, especially on the canopy is very light weight; in a heavy rain one can feel a very fine mist coming through. (We finally sent the canopy out to be professionally waterproof coated which has solved the problem.)

They used some self healing zippers but for the canopy connection to the main tent, they used the old metal zippers and it has taken us three seasons to smooth those metal teeth out enough to zip smoothly. (For two summers I cursed loudly trying to get the canopy attached).
They did not sew the front canopy straps on strongly enough or with enough backing (the straps with gromits that receive the pole heads) and we had to have them reworked by a canvas shop because they were tearing loose. The rear straps on the canopy were not put on at all until I sent the whole thing back for reworking. They also did not put the top rear tent strap on.

Finally, you really have to say that the sewing quality is not first rate. Seams wander and overlapping pieces were not caught together in places. We paid $645 for the tent and $220 for the canopy.

I do know a tentmaker that will make new canvas tents by copying your existing tent. It was he who repaired my Gregory Canvas tent and canopy and he has made some canvas side pannels for the canopy to my specifications. He also made up a velcro attached screening system that I designed for the canopy. If people are interested, I could be an intermediary (we are in Jersey City, New Jersey and he is in Patterson, NJ) for those too far away or for those who might want to use our old Eagle tent and canopy as a pattern. I'm just writing this as I think of it. Is there a service here? Should we talk?

I am John M. Hale, 293 Varick Street, Jersey City, NJ 07302.
Home phone: 201-435-8298; office phone: 201-547-4698.

Regards, John

Post Script: Impressive job on the web page design and operation: attractive, clear, good content, nice graphics. Nice.

As I indicated earlier, I discovered your Apache web site yesterday and I couldn't be happier. Like others… I thought I was the only one out there with an Apache! As a matter of fact, as I've been researching stuff the past week or more, I came across the local regional 'Want Advertiser' and there are 3 Apache pop-ups for sale. We bought our 1966 Apache 'Golden Buffalo' in August of 1989, I think. We bought it from a guy in New Hampshire. We only paid $300.00 for it, which even then was a very good deal, for what we got.

The Buffalo is very similar to the Eagle… I -think-. See the p. 2 drawing of the Eagle on the http://www.bobcoxcampercountry.com/apache/apache.html   parts page on their website. The single difference I noticed is the door on the Buffalo is on the right hand side, not the rear. The Buffalo has two slide-out beds which open up rearwards & forward - over the single tow bar ( 2" x 2" square, more or less) instead of out to the sides. It has a drop-down dinette, a small
sink ( w/pump?? I don't recall…) , a propane stove, and an ice box ( not a refrigerator, unfortunately). It also has a furnace but it is faulty & needs replaced. The 'box' is painted a semi-mettalic gold ( a la the 'Gold'en Buffalo name I guess) with the white stone shield on the front, and a hardshell white fiberglass Road Cover. When the road cover is raised and the beds extended, the green canvas tentage covers the beds & sidewalls. The canvas comes in two pieces, I think. We know one piece was pretty well torn & ripped ( storm damage here ) and we are hoping to replace it somehow. The other half should be in good shape. The Buffalo also came with a canvas Add-A-Room which was a godsend in NY (see below).

I still have a Massachusetts application for renewal - from 1991. We took it off the road and haven't used it since then. When we bought it, it was with the express purpose of hauling it to the Finger Lakes region of New York about 6 weeks later; we used it to camp out of while we attended a 4-day cluster of dog shows. We needed to make a few basic repairs to the canvas & curtains, replace the expired & rusted out propane tank, re-engineer the trailer wiring harness, etc. It performed wonderfully!! We weren't able to use it the next year except to set it up in the side yard, and we ended up garaging it until now.

My wife and I are making plans to go camping & fishing, and instead of the small dome tent, she mentioned looking at the Buffalo and trying to get the canvas repaired or replaced, etc. I spent all this past weekend moving everything out of the path of the Buffalo, sweeping the cement floor of dirt & rocks, etc. so we could take it out & set it up to examine everything. Unfortunately it has been raining for the past 3 days and we haven't moved it outside yet! Sigh!

As for registering the trailer… I do not have a Mass title for it. In 1989 when we first registered it, I was told by the clerk at the Registry that I did not need a Title. I seem to recall I was told it was because of the age ( as in 'anything over 10 years' ?? ) , and the fact it was not secured by a loan due to the fact I paid cash for it, or a combination of both age and value ?? I only got a Registration (plate) Certificate, no Title. Thank goodness I kept the Registration Certificate - it lists the VIN ( Apache
serial number, I presume) and the gross weight [ it says 1,000 lbs but I think it was slightly more than that, but I can't say for sure ]. I have an Instruction page which is identical to the 1966 R*%#@ ( hey, I'm a Cleveland Browns fan - I can't say that R-word!! :^} ) page you posted on your web site, but nothing else. I would love to find an Owner's Manual and parts list for the Buffalo, but before I contact ole' Elmer, I want to wait until I pull the thing out, open it up and inspect it all over, etc. I'll try & take some photos of it & scan them in to send to you. It needs some work & sprucing up for sure, but if the undercarriage & frame are ok, we're going to work on 'restoring' it to road condition and use it this summer !

Tom
Fitchburg, Mass

PS - visit the Apache Story page to read Clayton's original story.

Jack up the camper (you can use a car jack on the frame or use the tongue jack with the rear jacks down and locked).  Be sure to use safety stands under the camper.  Raise one wheel off the ground.  Use a hammer and screwdriver to loosen the cap from the center of the wheel.  We used the hammer claw to pry it off a little at a time, moving around the cap.  Make sure the inside of the cap is clean and put it aside.  You will see a large nut beneath the cap, with a cotter pin through it. Bend the end of the cotter pin straight and push it out (or pull out
with pliers) the other end to remove it.  Clean it and put it aside. The nut should only be hand tight, so you should be able to remove it without tools.  Once the nut is removed, you can remove the entire wheel.  The bearings (there are two sets in each wheel) can be removed
by using a crow bar or hammer handle and tapping them out from the opposite side.  The bearing and seal will pop out.  Pop out both bearings and seals, wipe all dirty grease from them, and wipe out the inner area of the wheel. To repack the bearings, just put a big blob of wheel bearing grease (from auto parts or hardware store) into the palm of your hand, and "shave" the grease from your hand with the bearing, working the grease into the gap between the bearing housing and the bearings themselves. (It's very self-evident when you look at it.)  The old dirty grease will push out the top.  When the bearings are repacked, replace them in the wheel with the seals and tap back in.  Just remember which side was which.  One bearing is larger than the other.  (I think the larger bearing goes on the outside of the wheel)  Place the wheel back on the axle, replace the nut.  Turn the nut till hand tight, then replace the cotter pin through the hole in nut and axle end.  Bend one end of the cotter pin so it won't fall out.  Tap the cover back on and it's done. Repeat for the other side. This took my neighbor ten minutes for one wheel, and took me about fifteen for the other by myself.  This made a huge difference in the "free spin" of the wheels.  It also allowed me to lubricate all the trailer brake parts located behind the wheel.  And if you need to sand and paint your trailer wheels, this is a good way to do it because you have them off and there's no danger of paint contaminating the grease. Just plug the center area with newspaper and spray. Good Luck. Pete.

Relpy from John Kennedy 5/23/99
Hey fellow APACHE owner and guru of all that is hardside camping! I just finished changing the windows in my 1977 ramada and thought I would send along how it got done. My camper does not have rubber holding the windows in. There is a piece of extruded aluminum on each
end of the window and the window slides in a track top and bottom. I cranked the top up then went inside. While lifting the end of the wall I was able to slide the roller assembly that holds each end of the wall, toward the outside of the camper top. There is a notch in the track that allows you to remove the rollers from the track. A helper to hold the disconnected end while you do the other end is required. Lay the wall down on a support in your camper (wood blocks, whatever).  Once you have both ends out, you have to remove the screws that hold the top track in place( 2 at each support). Once the screws are removed you can lift the entire top track off then the windows all come out the top. REMEMBER which track you got each window from!!!!! IF your screens are screwed in remove the screen screws also. Carefully
remove the extruded aluminum from each side of each window. NOTE WHICH END IS UP and which way the weatherstrip points. The ends MUST go on the new glass the SAME way they came off the old. Put them on the new plexiglass. (use a little clear silicone sealer to hold them in place). Reassemble in reverse. Good luck be patient. John Kennedy

This weekend, my wife and I came across a 1976 Apache for sale in Northern California.  We felt the unit was in "good-excellent" condition.

We have been looking out for a good deal in an older tent trailer for a few weeks, but this was the first hard-side unit we came across and liked the layout very much.  We spent three hours with it, setting-up twice, checking all the systems, including 12 volt electrical and gas.  The units doesn't have a furnace/heater and the battery is missing.  I am also not sure how the brake system works - neither does the owner who only buys, cleans and resale's tent trailers (privately) and appears to know very little about them!

When we took it down for the last time, one of the lifts stuck which we alleviated when we moved to flatter ground - this was the only issue we
experienced.  I "test-towed" the Royal behind my 1996 3.0L Caravan and it performed well (no problems at 65 mph).

The current owner is firm at $1,900 - what kind of deal does this represent or should we keep on looking? - Paul Humphreys.

Apache solid state campers are the best campers bar none. They were ahead of the rest and nothing has come since to challenge their status. They were quality built and one of the best engineered designs around. What I do not understand is why other companies haven't figured out the advantages the solid state campers have.

I bought my Mesa from my brother about 10 years ago. We used it for a few years and then following Hurricane Andrew we lent it to a former neighbor to use while their house was being repaired. The camper was set up and used for 14 months before it was returned to us. Needless to say, it bore the wear & tear of everyday use and constant exposure. Last year I began a massive rebuild because there is still nothing on the market that can touch it. The roof had a crack, the vent leaked water, the cushions were shot, the sink leaked, the inside wood panels had rotted from small water leaks, the windows were brittle and cracked.  The end window panels were sagging and leaked as well.

About 11 months later, the camper almost looks like new. Unfortunately I was not able to keep the original theme in the drapes, etc. but it still looks great and renewed. All of the wood paneling (including the ceiling) was replaced with a lighter whitewashed finish which made the whole inside brighter. That included the ceiling, the inside ends, and all of the cabinet doors and faces (including the seating area). The ceiling crack was repaired by removing the top and fiberglassing the inside. When the top was replaced, it was reinsulated to keep the inside cool. A new ceiling fan unit replaced the old one and overhead lights were placed above the sink, above the table, and just above the entrance. The unit did have an air conditioner installed I decided that when I replaced that front end to reinforce the inside of the front shell with a fiberglass reinforced frame. When the A/C was replaced I used some boat molding around the edge of the fiberglass and then silicone caulk it to the A/C. I also had to replace the sink faucet and since the internal water tank was cracked, I cut it down so that it was just a tray to hold the hose and all electrical cords.  All new external travel lights were installed.  The bearings were removed, inspected, and repacked as well as replacing the bearing seals. The floor had quite a few nicks & cracks so we decided to put a new one on top of the old. While the frames & cabinets were out I cleaned the old floor with Acetone and used the best Armstrong's floor tiles I could find. They really made a difference.

Now comes the last part. To really restore this, there are quite a few of the seals and gaskets which I need to replace. Mainly, they are:
     1. The seals on the side panels at the end slide outs.
     2. The seal on the ends beneath the slide outs.
     3. The pieces above the end windows.
     4. The pieces connected to the roof which seal the fold out ends at the roof.
     5.  The "Apache" lettering for both sides (otherwise I'll create a some kind of Apace sign to go there)

I'm not sure if there are other missing pieces since I don't have any guide to tell me otherwise.  Following our first shakedown campout this weekend I plan to add a 12v socket for our Electric Coleman Cooler, and any other 12v accessory. My kids thoroughly enjoyed the weekend and their looking forward to more. I was watching my son do some of the chores that I had when I was a kid (like putting in the poles under the slide-outs).

I was told that some others have added 2 - 12v batteries to the trailer tongue for remote locations but I'm not sure that the extra weight there is a good idea .  I'll follow some of the links you provided but any direct assistance would be appreciated.

Double beds at each end; Ice Box (no refrigerator); No A/C; Table with facing bench seats; Sink with faucet and holding tank (which leaks);
Rollout stove/sink; No fold out legs (have jack stands instead); No canvas anywhere

Also, I would like to install a refrigerator (electric, gas or both) and an A/C.  Any suggestions? Hope someone can help.

I have replaced all the Plexiglas windows.  They were too weathered and yellowish for me.  Also, the past owner had modified a window so a small window air conditioner could be slid in as needed.  I kept that convenience. My refrigerator works on electricity.  I have never tried gas.

I do have a small problem with my hookups on the side. All of the plastic inserts and covers have weathered and became very easy to break.  So, in my frustration one day, I decided to remove them all and order some more.  Well, that was a learning experience.  I found a place in Utah that had a few but not all of them.  Of course the one I needed most, the water intake, he didn't have and they were white instead of green.  He was really helpful though and shipped 3 of 5 to me at NO COST.   I also need to replace the overhead light.  I purchased one through Camping World (mail- order) and hooked it up and it just didn't work (???)  What am I to do?

Steve Hoch WU3I

What timing. They probably would have gone to the curb on Tuesday, with the leaves.

Nancy Jackson
Apache Eagle Six  1976?

If you know of any other Apache parts connections, please let me know and I'll post it here. Thanx!